This is my response to Tarek Sherif in his debate with Mari B. Kaimo of the 700Club (Did Jesus say he is God).
Here is what Tarek's opening argument, the One-Two Punch:
Tarek Sherif [KJV][Jn.18.19][The high priest then asked
Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.]
[KJV][Jn.18.20][Jesus answered him, I spoke openly to the
world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews
always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.]
So Now lets see how Divinity of Jesus destroyed from words
of Jesus in two steps:
Step one:
If we ask any Christian Jesus is the FATHER?
The answer will be NO Jesus is NOT the FATHER he is ANOTHER Person.
Any Christian says other wise he/she simply doesn't know their own doctrine as this is if they say Jesus is the Father it is considered to be HERESY due to ALL Trinitarian Churches in the world and it is famous by name Heresy of man called Sabiluis.
Now Did Jesus say that father is ANOTHER person to him?
Yes here it is:
Tarek Sherif [KJV][Jn.5.31][If I bear witness of myself, my
witness is not true.]
[KJV][Jn.5.32][There is another that beareth witness of me;
and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.]
Notice word ANOTER, and if we continue the context Jesus says who is this ANOTHER to Him:
[KJV][Jn.5.37][And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.]
So Step one Jesus is NOT the FATHER
STEP TWO:
Jesus speaking to the Father in John 17:3 declares him to be the ONLY ONLY ONLY true God and Jesus is the messenger of this ONLY true GOD:
[KJV][Jn.17.3][And this is life eternal, that they might
know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent]
So Jesus speaks to the Father who is SOMEONE ELSE (ANOTHER)
to Him and declares him to be ONLY true GOD, which means:
Any attempt to proof Divinity of Jesus is attempt to
associate Partner beside the ONLY true GOD, goings against words of Jesus, and
I am afraid this is called POLYTHIESM.
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Here is my Reply:
Step one:
Correct, we view the incarnation of Jesus as having two natures, one divine, and one that is human. Clearly without a doubt, Jesus is NOT the Father and that isn’t based upon Christian Trinitarian Churches but the Bible itself, and also what liturgy and creedal statements clearly verify the distinct two natures of Christ and there is only one God.
Step one:
Correct, we view the incarnation of Jesus as having two natures, one divine, and one that is human. Clearly without a doubt, Jesus is NOT the Father and that isn’t based upon Christian Trinitarian Churches but the Bible itself, and also what liturgy and creedal statements clearly verify the distinct two natures of Christ and there is only one God.
So Step one is easily dismissed.
However, while we do recognize the Father as a person that does NOT mean that we are speaking of a separate essence between the Word and the Father. As we see in John Chapter 1; In the beginning, The Word was with God and the Word was God. There is no claim as Jesus being a separate God, therefore it is easily concluded that God is one essence. The Bible never states there is more than one God.
However, while we do recognize the Father as a person that does NOT mean that we are speaking of a separate essence between the Word and the Father. As we see in John Chapter 1; In the beginning, The Word was with God and the Word was God. There is no claim as Jesus being a separate God, therefore it is easily concluded that God is one essence. The Bible never states there is more than one God.
The Trinity; God is One Essence
(being) that is revealed in three Persons. The three are distinct in their
roles within the economy of the Trinity.
The Trinity entails the following:
1. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One God, One Being, One Essence, co-equal, co-eternal
The Trinity entails the following:
1. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One God, One Being, One Essence, co-equal, co-eternal
2. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = all distinct persons while having simultaneously three self-centers of consciousness.
3. Father,
Son, Holy Spirit = each having different roles in what is called the economy of
the Trinity. Father=chooses whom will be save (Eph 1:4). Son= Redeems them (Eph
1:7). The Holy Spirit= seals them (Eph 1:7) Jesus works in perfect unity with
the Father and knows and performs the will of the Father (john 8:42). This is
why Jesus can claim he is The Truth (John 14:6).
4.
Omnipresence: Wayne Grudem defines Omnipresence as such
"Just
as God is unlimited or infinite with respect to time, so God is unlimited with
respect to space. This characteristic of God's nature is called God's
omnipresence (the Latin prefix omni-means 'all'). God's omnipresence may be
defined as follows: God does not have size or spatial dimensions and is present
at every point of space with his whole being, yet God acts differently in
different places."
A good
example of where from Scripture Christian Theists gain this thought is Jeremiah
23:23-24 where God says "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" But
throughout scripture there are other allusions to this thought (cf: Ps.
139:7-10; Col. 1:17; etc.).
Cf:
Grudem, Wayne, (1994) Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical
Doctrine. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. More on this here: http://quizlet.com/7418936/gods-omnipresence-flash-cards/
5. There
is a distinction between essence (being) and persons. Everyone is a being, and
also a person. The two are not the same. We are all human beings (sharing the
same nature), yet different persons. We
are all distinct from each other.
6. The
Word became Flesh= The Word took on flesh and has two separate natures, Divine
and Human. There is no mixing, no matching. Jesus is both truly God, truly man. When we understand the term as truly meaning completely. Therefore there is no mixture of the divine with the humanity to make something completely new. Also there is no addition to either nature or depletion of either nature. To be complete is complete not partial this is the hypostatic union.
Note: From this point onward references to the Trinity will be as T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6 in accordance to the list above.
Therefore,
at all times we must be cognizant and adhere to the Trinity within it’s very
nature—In its entirety.
Step Two:
John 17:3 [NET] Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
Reference T3, T6
Therefore, of course Jesus’ humanity was subservient to the Trinity. We do not deny his humanity. Despite the claims of Numbers 23:19, we understand that God is not a man that should lie. The incarnation was not in place at the time of Numbers 23:19, and also to the strict sense God is not a man as referenced in T3, T6 Jesus has two distinct natures.
But the context follows… John 17:4 [NET] I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.
While we do share this glory, we were not with God before creation; Jesus The Word was before creation.
The Two points:
1. Completing the work you gave me to do
2. Glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.
Point 1.
This is clearly speaking of the mission of Jesus that began with Genesis 3 where God placed judgment oracles upon humankind; God had cursed the serpent [verse 3:14-15], Eve [3:16], and Adam, which also included the ground [3:17-19].
As we see there is hostility between the serpent; his offspring, and the woman and her offspring. This is a vital key to understand the fall of humankind and therefore a need for restoration. This comes through a second Adam, and like Eve a Virgin which was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. The term Almah has been referred to Virgin could be referred as to a young maiden.
Matt Slick writes:
“The LXX is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek. This translation was made around 200 B.C. by 70 Hebrew scholars. In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word "almah" into the Greek word "parthenos." According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,2 parthenos means "virgin." This word is used in the New Testament of the Virgin Mary (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:27) and of the ten virgins in the parable (Matt. 25:1, 7, 11). If the Hebrews translated the Hebrew word "alma" into the Greek word for virgin, then they understood what the Hebrew text meant here. Why would Isaiah choose to use the word almah and not bethulah? It was probably because he wanted to demonstrate that the virgin would also be a young woman. Is it still a prophecy? Of course.” [1]
St. Justin Martyr (120-165 AD) was the first Church Father to draw an explicit comparison between Eve and Mary: "For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, conceiving the word that was from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; but the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings, that the Spirit of the Lord should ... overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One that was born of her was Son of God, answered, "Be it done to me according to Thy word." [2]
"Christ has therefore, in His work of recapitulation, summed up all things, both waging war against our enemy, and crushing him who had at the beginning led us away captives in Adam, and trampled upon his head, as thou can perceive in Genesis that God said to the serpent, 'And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; He shall be on the watch for thy head, and thou on the watch for his heel.' For from that time, He who should be born of a woman, namely from the Virgin, after the likeness of Adam, was preached as keeping watch for the head of the serpent. This is the seed of which the apostle says in the Letter to the Galatians, 'that the law of works was established until the seed should come to whom the promise was made (Galatians 3:19).' This fact is exhibited in a still clearer light in the same Epistle where he thus speaks: 'But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).' For indeed the enemy would not have been fairly vanquished, unless it had been a man born of a woman who conquered him. For it was by means of a woman that he got the advantage over man at first, setting himself up as man's opponent. And therefore does the Lord profess Himself to be the Son of man, comprising in Himself that original man out of whom the woman was fashioned, in order that, as our species went down to death through a vanqushed man, so we may ascend to life again through a victorious one; and as through a man death received the palm of victory against us, so again by a man we may receive the palm against death."
1. Completing the work you gave me to do
2. Glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.
Point 1.
This is clearly speaking of the mission of Jesus that began with Genesis 3 where God placed judgment oracles upon humankind; God had cursed the serpent [verse 3:14-15], Eve [3:16], and Adam, which also included the ground [3:17-19].
As we see there is hostility between the serpent; his offspring, and the woman and her offspring. This is a vital key to understand the fall of humankind and therefore a need for restoration. This comes through a second Adam, and like Eve a Virgin which was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. The term Almah has been referred to Virgin could be referred as to a young maiden.
Matt Slick writes:
“The LXX is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek. This translation was made around 200 B.C. by 70 Hebrew scholars. In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word "almah" into the Greek word "parthenos." According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,2 parthenos means "virgin." This word is used in the New Testament of the Virgin Mary (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:27) and of the ten virgins in the parable (Matt. 25:1, 7, 11). If the Hebrews translated the Hebrew word "alma" into the Greek word for virgin, then they understood what the Hebrew text meant here. Why would Isaiah choose to use the word almah and not bethulah? It was probably because he wanted to demonstrate that the virgin would also be a young woman. Is it still a prophecy? Of course.” [1]
St. Justin Martyr (120-165 AD) was the first Church Father to draw an explicit comparison between Eve and Mary: "For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, conceiving the word that was from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; but the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings, that the Spirit of the Lord should ... overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One that was born of her was Son of God, answered, "Be it done to me according to Thy word." [2]
"Christ has therefore, in His work of recapitulation, summed up all things, both waging war against our enemy, and crushing him who had at the beginning led us away captives in Adam, and trampled upon his head, as thou can perceive in Genesis that God said to the serpent, 'And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; He shall be on the watch for thy head, and thou on the watch for his heel.' For from that time, He who should be born of a woman, namely from the Virgin, after the likeness of Adam, was preached as keeping watch for the head of the serpent. This is the seed of which the apostle says in the Letter to the Galatians, 'that the law of works was established until the seed should come to whom the promise was made (Galatians 3:19).' This fact is exhibited in a still clearer light in the same Epistle where he thus speaks: 'But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).' For indeed the enemy would not have been fairly vanquished, unless it had been a man born of a woman who conquered him. For it was by means of a woman that he got the advantage over man at first, setting himself up as man's opponent. And therefore does the Lord profess Himself to be the Son of man, comprising in Himself that original man out of whom the woman was fashioned, in order that, as our species went down to death through a vanqushed man, so we may ascend to life again through a victorious one; and as through a man death received the palm of victory against us, so again by a man we may receive the palm against death."
- St. Irenaeus, Against the
Heresies, Book V, 21, [3]
How was work to be done, be accomplished?
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
How was work to be done, be accomplished?
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
Matt 20:17 Now Jesus
was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to
them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will
be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn
him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and
flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”
Mark 8:31-33
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Predicts His Death
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer
many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers
of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He
spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked
Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns
of God, but merely human concerns.”
Mark 9:30-32
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Predicts His Death a Second Time
30 They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did
not want anyone to know where they were, 31 because he was
teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be
delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he
will rise.” 32 But they did not understand what he meant and
were afraid to ask him about it.
Mark 10:32-34
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
32 They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading
the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were
afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen
to him. 33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the
Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the
law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who
will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will
rise.”
Luke 9:22-27
New International Version (NIV)
22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be
rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he
must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple
must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For
whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for
me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the
whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever
is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he
comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste
death before they see the kingdom of God.”
Cross references:
Luke 18:31-34
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up
to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of
Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the
Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they
will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was
hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about
Matthew 16:21-28
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples
that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders,
the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and
on the third day be raised to life.
22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!”
he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You
are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but
merely human concerns.”
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my
disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For
whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What
good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or
what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son
of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will
reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste
death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Matthew 20:17-19
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the
Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to
Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and
the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and
will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On
the third day he will be raised to life!”
Matthew 26:1-2
New International Version (NIV)
The Plot Against Jesus
26 When Jesus had finished
saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2 “As you
know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to
be crucified.”
But why would Jesus be crucified?
But why would Jesus be crucified?
Leviticus 17:11 for the life of
every living thing is in the blood. So I myself have assigned it to you on the
altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means
of the life.
Was this a new notion, sacrificing to save others?
Exodus 32:30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a very serious sin, but now I will go up to the Lord—perhaps I can make atonement on behalf of your sin.”
Was this a new notion, sacrificing to save others?
Exodus 32:30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a very serious sin, but now I will go up to the Lord—perhaps I can make atonement on behalf of your sin.”
31 So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people
has committed a very serious sin, and they have made for themselves gods of
gold. 32 But now, if you
will forgive their sin…, but if not, wipe me out from your book that you have
written.”
Moses was rejected due to not being
sinless. As we know Moses did commit murder [Exodus 2:12 He looked all around, and when he didn’t see
anyone, he beat the Egyptian to death and hid the body in the sand].
Galatians 4:4-7English Standard Version (ESV)
Galatians 4:4-7English Standard Version (ESV)
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his
Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were
under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And
because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,
crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son,
and if a son, then an heir through God.
Point 2
Point 2
The Glory Jesus shared with God before
the creation of the world. [John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me at your side
with the glory I had with you before the world was created].
While we do share this glory, we were not with God before creation; Jesus The Word was before creation.
Some may reason that this is speaking of predestination, however this is not the case.
1. Jesus existed before creation as the Word, as we see in John Chapter 1, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. To say the Word was created would mean God was created. No mention of two God’s here, but a distinction.
2. The Word existed before eternity John 1:1-2; John 6:62; John3:13; John 16:28. The glory which he had then was that which was proper to the Son of God, this is represented by the expression "being in the bosom of the Father" John 1:18. This is where the terminology Very God of Very God comes from. Jesus is the same essence being in the bosom of the Father. The Son of God, by becoming incarnate, is represented as "humbling himself" (Greek: he "emptied himself"), Philippians 2:8.
While we do share this glory, we were not with God before creation; Jesus The Word was before creation.
Some may reason that this is speaking of predestination, however this is not the case.
1. Jesus existed before creation as the Word, as we see in John Chapter 1, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. To say the Word was created would mean God was created. No mention of two God’s here, but a distinction.
2. The Word existed before eternity John 1:1-2; John 6:62; John3:13; John 16:28. The glory which he had then was that which was proper to the Son of God, this is represented by the expression "being in the bosom of the Father" John 1:18. This is where the terminology Very God of Very God comes from. Jesus is the same essence being in the bosom of the Father. The Son of God, by becoming incarnate, is represented as "humbling himself" (Greek: he "emptied himself"), Philippians 2:8.
3. Jesus comes in the fullness of
the time. Being under the law to free us from the curse of the law. Galatians
4:4-7New English Translation (NET Bible) 4 But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out
his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we
may be adopted as sons with full rights. 6 And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his
Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are
no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir
through God.
4. Jesus shares the glory with the
Father. However in Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord! That is my name! I will not share
my glory with anyone else, or the praise due me with idols. So this means that
while the Word/Jesus shared the glory with the Father, this means that he is
the same essence of the Father. This fits hand and glove with John 1 as the
Word is God, not another God.
5. Jesus clearly states the Lord God is one Jesus answered, “The most important is: ‘Listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [Mark 12:29] Therefore we must conclude by abductive reasoning that there is One God and the Word is God. This means at this point The Father and the Son are of one Essence.
Sources:
[1]http://carm.org/isaiah-7-14-virgin
5. Jesus clearly states the Lord God is one Jesus answered, “The most important is: ‘Listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [Mark 12:29] Therefore we must conclude by abductive reasoning that there is One God and the Word is God. This means at this point The Father and the Son are of one Essence.
Conclusion Tarek shoots the Sheriff.
Sources:
[1]http://carm.org/isaiah-7-14-virgin
[2]St. Justin Martyr. "Dialogue with Trypho", Chapter 100, in Fathers of the Church. New York: Christian Heritage, 1948.
[3] Andrew Louth. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Genesis 1-11. (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 2001), 90-91.
