Tuesday, November 11, 2014

A Response to Tarek Sherif Did Jesus say he is God, Round One

This is my response to Tarek Sherif in his debate with Mari B. Kaimo of the 700Club (Did Jesus say he is God).

Here is what Tarek's opening argument, the One-Two Punch:

Tarek Sherif [KJV][Jn.18.19][The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.]
[KJV][Jn.18.20][Jesus answered him, I spoke openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.]

So Now lets see how Divinity of Jesus destroyed from words of Jesus in two steps:

Step one:

If we ask any Christian Jesus is the FATHER?

The answer will be NO Jesus is NOT the FATHER he is ANOTHER Person.

Any Christian says other wise he/she simply doesn't know their own doctrine as this is if they say Jesus is the Father it is considered to be HERESY due to ALL Trinitarian Churches in the world and it is famous by name Heresy of man called Sabiluis.

Now Did Jesus say that father is ANOTHER person to him?

Yes here it is:

Tarek Sherif [KJV][Jn.5.31][If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.]
[KJV][Jn.5.32][There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.]

Notice word ANOTER, and if we continue the context Jesus says who is this ANOTHER to Him:

[KJV][Jn.5.37][And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.]

So Step one Jesus is NOT the FATHER

STEP TWO:

Jesus speaking to the Father in John 17:3 declares him to be the ONLY ONLY ONLY true God and Jesus is the messenger of this ONLY true GOD:

[KJV][Jn.17.3][And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent]

So Jesus speaks to the Father who is SOMEONE ELSE (ANOTHER) to Him and declares him to be ONLY true GOD, which means:

Any attempt to proof Divinity of Jesus is attempt to associate Partner beside the ONLY true GOD, goings against words of Jesus, and I am afraid this is called POLYTHIESM.
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Here is my Reply:

Step one:
Correct, we view the incarnation of Jesus as having two natures, one divine, and one that is human. Clearly without a doubt, Jesus is NOT the Father and that isn’t based upon Christian Trinitarian Churches but the Bible itself, and also what liturgy and creedal statements clearly verify the distinct two natures of Christ and there is only one God.

So Step one is easily dismissed.

However, while we do recognize the Father as a person that does NOT mean that we are speaking of a separate essence between the Word and the Father. As we see in John Chapter 1; In the beginning, The Word was with God and the Word was God. There is no claim as Jesus being a separate God, therefore it is easily concluded that God is one essence. The Bible never states there is more than one God.

The Trinity; God is One Essence (being) that is revealed in three Persons. The three are distinct in their roles within the economy of the Trinity.

The Trinity entails the following:

1. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One God, One Being, One Essence, co-equal, co-eternal

2. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = all distinct persons while having simultaneously three self-centers of consciousness.

3. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = each having different roles in what is called the economy of the Trinity. Father=chooses whom will be save (Eph 1:4). Son= Redeems them (Eph 1:7). The Holy Spirit= seals them (Eph 1:7) Jesus works in perfect unity with the Father and knows and performs the will of the Father (john 8:42). This is why Jesus can claim he is The Truth (John 14:6).

4. Omnipresence: Wayne Grudem defines Omnipresence as such
"Just as God is unlimited or infinite with respect to time, so God is unlimited with respect to space. This characteristic of God's nature is called God's omnipresence (the Latin prefix omni-means 'all'). God's omnipresence may be defined as follows: God does not have size or spatial dimensions and is present at every point of space with his whole being, yet God acts differently in different places."
A good example of where from Scripture Christian Theists gain this thought is Jeremiah 23:23-24 where God says "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" But throughout scripture there are other allusions to this thought (cf: Ps. 139:7-10; Col. 1:17; etc.).
Cf: Grudem, Wayne, (1994) Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. More on this here: http://quizlet.com/7418936/gods-omnipresence-flash-cards/

5. There is a distinction between essence (being) and persons. Everyone is a being, and also a person. The two are not the same. We are all human beings (sharing the same nature), yet different persons.  We are all distinct from each other.

6. The Word became Flesh= The Word took on flesh and has two separate natures, Divine and Human. There is no mixing, no matching. Jesus is both truly God, truly man. When we understand the term as truly meaning completely. Therefore there is no mixture of the divine with the humanity to make something completely new. Also there is no addition to either nature or depletion of either nature. To be complete is complete not partial this is the hypostatic union.

Note: From this point onward references to the Trinity will be as T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6 in accordance to the list above.


Therefore, at all times we must be cognizant and adhere to the Trinity within it’s very nature—In its entirety. 


Step Two:
John 17:3 [NET] Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

Reference T3, T6

Therefore, of course Jesus’ humanity was subservient to the Trinity. We do not deny his humanity. Despite the claims of Numbers 23:19, we understand that God is not a man that should lie. The incarnation was not in place at the time of Numbers 23:19, and also to the strict sense God is not a man as referenced in T3, T6 Jesus has two distinct natures.

But the context follows…  John 17:4 [NET] I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I
had with you before the world was created.

While we do share this glory, we were not with God before creation; Jesus The Word was before creation.


The Two points:

1. Completing the work you gave me to do
2. Glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.

Point 1.

This is clearly speaking of the mission of Jesus that began with Genesis 3 where God placed judgment oracles upon humankind; God had cursed the serpent [verse 3:14-15], Eve [3:16], and Adam, which also included the ground [3:17-19].

As we see there is hostility between the serpent; his offspring, and the woman and her offspring. This is a vital key to understand the fall of humankind and therefore a need for restoration. This comes through a second Adam, and like Eve a Virgin which was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. The term Almah has been referred to Virgin could be referred as to a young maiden.

Matt Slick writes:
“The LXX is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek.  This translation was made around 200 B.C. by 70 Hebrew scholars.  In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word "almah" into the Greek word "parthenos."  According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,2 parthenos means "virgin."  This word is used in the New Testament of the Virgin Mary (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:27) and of the ten virgins in the parable (Matt. 25:1, 7, 11).  If the Hebrews translated the Hebrew word "alma" into the Greek word for virgin, then they understood what the Hebrew text meant here. Why would Isaiah choose to use the word almah and not bethulah?  It was probably because he wanted to demonstrate that the virgin would also be a young woman. Is it still a prophecy? Of course.” [1]


St. Justin Martyr (120-165 AD) was the first Church Father to draw an explicit comparison between Eve and Mary: "For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, conceiving the word that was from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; but the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings, that the Spirit of the Lord should ... overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One that was born of her was Son of God, answered, "Be it done to me according to Thy word." [2]
"Christ has therefore, in His work of recapitulation, summed up all things, both waging war against our enemy, and crushing him who had at the beginning led us away captives in Adam, and trampled upon his head, as thou can perceive in Genesis that God said to the serpent, 'And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; He shall be on the watch for thy head, and thou on the watch for his heel.' For from that time, He who should be born of a woman, namely from the Virgin, after the likeness of Adam, was preached as keeping watch for the head of the serpent. This is the seed of which the apostle says in the Letter to the Galatians, 'that the law of works was established until the seed should come to whom the promise was made (Galatians 3:19).' This fact is exhibited in a still clearer light in the same Epistle where he thus speaks: 'But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).' For indeed the enemy would not have been fairly vanquished, unless it had been a man born of a woman who conquered him. For it was by means of a woman that he got the advantage over man at first, setting himself up as man's opponent. And therefore does the Lord profess Himself to be the Son of man, comprising in Himself that original man out of whom the woman was fashioned, in order that, as our species went down to death through a vanqushed man, so we may ascend to life again through a victorious one; and as through a man death received the palm of victory against us, so again by a man we may receive the palm against death."
- St. Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book V, 21, [3]

How was work to be done, be accomplished?

Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
Matt 20:17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Mark 8:31-33
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts His Death
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Mark 9:30-32
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts His Death a Second Time
30 They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, 31 because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.” 32 But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.

Mark 10:32-34
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
32 They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”

Luke 9:22-27
New International Version (NIV)
22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

Cross references:
B      Mark10:32 : Mk3:16-19
C      Mark10:33 : SLk 9:51
D     Mark10:33 : SMt 8:20
E      Mark10:33 : Mt27:1, 2
F      Mark10:34 : SMt 16:21
G      Mark10:34 : Ac2:23; 3:13
H     Mark10:34 : SMt 16:21
I       Mark10:34 : SMt 16:21

Luke 18:31-34
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about

Matthew 16:21-28
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts His Death
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 20:17-19
New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Matthew 26:1-2
New International Version (NIV)

The Plot Against Jesus
26 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, “As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”

But why would Jesus be crucified?
Leviticus 17:11 for the life of every living thing is in the blood. So I myself have assigned it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means of the life.

Was this a new notion, sacrificing to save others?
Exodus 32:30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a very serious sin, but now I will go up to the Lord—perhaps I can make atonement on behalf of your sin.”
31 So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people has committed a very serious sin, and they have made for themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, if you will forgive their sin…, but if not, wipe me out from your book that you have written.”

Moses was rejected due to not being sinless. As we know Moses did commit murder [Exodus 2:12 He looked all around, and when he didn’t see anyone, he beat the Egyptian to death and hid the body in the sand].

Galatians 4:4-7English Standard Version (ESV)
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.


Point 2

The Glory Jesus shared with God before the creation of the world. [John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created].

While we do share this glory, we were not with God before creation; Jesus The Word was before creation.

Some may reason that this is speaking of predestination, however this is not the case.

1. Jesus existed before creation as the Word, as we see in John Chapter 1, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. To say the Word was created would mean God was created. No mention of two God’s here, but a distinction.

2. The Word existed before eternity
John 1:1-2; John 6:62; John3:13; John 16:28. The glory which he had then was that which was proper to the Son of God, this is represented by the expression "being in the bosom of the Father" John 1:18. This is where the terminology Very God of Very God comes from. Jesus is the same essence being in the bosom of the Father. The Son of God, by becoming incarnate, is represented as "humbling himself" (Greek: he "emptied himself"), Philippians 2:8.

3. Jesus comes in the fullness of the time. Being under the law to free us from the curse of the law. Galatians 4:4-7New English Translation (NET Bible) 4 But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights. 6 And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir through God.

4. Jesus shares the glory with the Father. However in Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord! That is my name! I will not share my glory with anyone else, or the praise due me with idols. So this means that while the Word/Jesus shared the glory with the Father, this means that he is the same essence of the Father. This fits hand and glove with John 1 as the Word is God, not another God.

5. Jesus clearly states the Lord God is one Jesus answered, “The most important is: ‘Listen, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. [Mark 12:29] Therefore we must conclude by abductive reasoning that there is One God and the Word is God. This means at this point The Father and the Son are of one Essence.


Conclusion Tarek shoots the Sheriff.





Sources:
[1]http://carm.org/isaiah-7-14-virgin

[2]St. Justin Martyr. "Dialogue with Trypho", Chapter 100, in Fathers of the Church. New York: Christian Heritage, 1948.

[3] Andrew Louth. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: Genesis 1-11. (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 2001), 90-91.








Saturday, November 8, 2014

10,007 Hard words in the Bible?

Updated: This article was written over a year ago, Quran.com has changed significantly. You can verify the numbers using the old link for quran.com http://legacy.quran.com

Making its way into the Christian vs. Muslim debate circles is an interesting chart that depicts the Bible as showing more hard words than the Quran. Is this MEME an accurate representation of the number of hard words [sic]?


Now for the Bible KJV (search per http://www.biblegateway.com)

Fire= 515 Results
Burn= 606 Results
Hell= 54 Results
Punish=
72 Results ‎
Torture= 1 Result

Total =515+606+54+72+1=1248

Fear= 501 Results ‎
Terror= 44 Results ‎
Horrify=0 Results
Terrify= 4Results ‎

Total=501+44+0+4=549

Anger= 229 Results ‎
Despise= 113 Results ‎
Detest= 7 Results
Hate= 179 Results
Contempt= 15 Results ‎
Scorn= 41 Results ‎
Slave= 2 Results
Wrath= 197 Results ‎

Total=229+113+7+179+15+41+2+197=783

Attack= 0 Results
Battle= 171 Results ‎
Fight= 111 Results
Force= 42 Results
War= 346 Results
Invade= 7 Results ‎
Oppress= 110 Results
Raid= 0 Results
Violence= 56 Results ‎

Total= 0+171+111+42+346+7+110+0+56=843

Destroy= 433 Results
Murder=37 Results ‎
Kill= 208 Results
Slay= 142 Results

Total=433+37+208+142=820

Total of hard words [sic]

Total=1248+549+783+843+820=4243

Forgive= 95 Results
Hope= 133 Results
Mercy= 262 Results
Reward= 103 Results

Total=95+133+262+103=593



So in essence, it is most difficult to distinguish where the data for this meme comes from. As you see according to the results (check for yourself to verify), only 4,423 hard words for the KJV Bible, not 10,007. Granted there are supposedly over 31,000+ (31,102) verses of the KJV Bible over the 6346 verses within the Quran. The KJV has 24,756 more verses than the Quran. That would be 490.1% more verses in the KJV than in the Quran. (perhaps a new chart may follow later). Another way to think of this is the KJV has 4.901 times more verses than the Quran. So this taken into account, the Quran would have more significance of the hard words in correlation. With a multiplication factor of 4.901. Granted some of these terms may not reflect a negative connotation, but just for the sake of verifying the meme I chose to keep in accordance to just the words.

Lets verify the Original meme for correct representation of its claims. Data is derived from the results from a search using Quran.com PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS WAS WRITTEN USING THE NOW LEGACY VERSION OF QURAN.COM. HERE IS THE LINK TO VERIFY THE NUMBERS: http://legacy.quran.com


Fire= Results 272 for fire
Burn=Results 75 for burn
Hell=Results 223 for hell‎
Punish=Results 563 for punish‎
Torture=Results 10 for torture

Total =272+75+223+563+10=1143

Fear= Results 380 for fear‎
Terror= Results 32 for terror‎
Horrify= Results 35 for horrify
Terrify= Results 6 for terrify‎

Total=380+32+35+6=453

Anger= Results 27 for Anger‎
Despise= Results 18 for Despise‎
Detest= Results 20 for detest
Hate= Results 43 for hate
Contempt= Results 16 for contempt‎
Scorn= Results 25 for scorn‎
Slave= Results 160 for slave
Wrath= Results 70 for wrath‎

Total=27+18+20+43+16+25+160+70=379

Attack= Results 21 for attack
Battle= Results 38 for battle‎
Fight= Results 94 for fight‎
Force= Results 82 for force
War= Results 236 for war
Invade= Results 43 for invade‎
Oppress= Results 62 for oppress
Raid= Results 4 for raid
Violence= Results 33 for violence‎

Total=21+38+94+82+236+43+62+4+33=613

Destroy= Results 129 for destroy
Murder=Results 11 for murder‎
Kill= Results 102 for kill
Slay= Results 46 for slay

Total=129+11+102+46=288

Total of hard words [sic]
Total=1143+453+379+613+288=2876

Forgive= Results 237 for forgive
Hope= Results 61 for hope
Mercy= Results 343 for mercy
Reward= Results 271 for reward

Total=237+61+343+271=912

So the Quran has 2,876 hard words, not so much 1143 words using a search of terms in Quran.com, again where is the data for the meme claiming 10,007 hard words?


Here is a chart just for Hard Words in the Quran verses the KJV NT. The Number of Quran verses = 6346, for the KJV New Testament there are a total number of 7957 which is close to the number of verses in the Quran.


Data for the KJV NT verses (Using e-sword program)



Keyword       
Fire=79
Burn=8
Hell=23
Punish=1
Torture=0
Total=111

Fear=78
Terror=3
Horrify=0
Terrify=1
Total= 82

Anger=5
Despise=13
Detest=0
Hate=16
Contempt=0
Scorn=3
Slave= 0
Wrath=45
Total=82

Attack=0
Battle=5
Fight=10
Force=4
War=15
Invade=0
Oppress=0
Raid=0
Violence=8
Total=42

Destroy=31
Murder=5
Kill=44
Slay=7
Total= 87

HardWords=404


KJV verse count
Source:
http://amazingbibletimeline.com/bible_questions/q10_bible_facts_statistics/